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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 21:19:21 GMT -5
It's two completely different issues......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Either way, tons or none, they're still stunted. Ok, what am I missing here? How can it be completely different issues??? I know I'm probably going to get bashed for saying this, but.......I kept waaaaay more fish in 2015 than I ever have.... whether our limit was 4,6,8,10.... hell 12 a few times. #1. I'm pretty sure everyone (you included) said the raising of the slot was to take more of the smaller fish out of the lake so there would be more bait for the larger fish, thus they would (maybe) not be stunted...... My understanding of the great debate was, we can't have both numbers and big fish .... I'm confused as hell.... which way do we proceed??? Not trying to argue Tyler, I value your opinions and knowledge of the fishery..... going forward, do we keep more of the sub 30" fish or not??? #2 you say either way, tons or none, they're still stunted...... has the whole idea and purpose of the new slot already been perceived a failure???
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Post by striperjohn on Feb 13, 2016 22:12:31 GMT -5
I recall asking the question "how many sub 30" fish need to be removed? No one knows. All this slot stuff and keeping fish is nothing more then wild a guesses. I do agree that our fish are not only fewer in number but stunted as well. Yet I have seen folks catching fish from 85-90 feet in the summer catch and release by the dozens. Guides included! I think if you want to improve this lake put a moratorium on striper fishing from 15 June to 15 September. IMHO. The lake that started freshwater stripers in this country, Santee Cooper does that now. It takes serious solutions to solve serious problems.
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BentRod
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Post by BentRod on Feb 13, 2016 22:43:20 GMT -5
It was specifically to allow more fish in the 26-28" to be removed to try to stop the blockade as increasingly more and more fish in the lake were stunting at that length. In other words, the fear was there were too many of the same size, not too many overall, and if you free up that size range, then they'll push through and grow normally and just as many will hit the 30" protected range and as quickly as they were stalling out at 26-28". I'm not sure it was specifically intended to dramatically reduce the overall population, which it hasn't in my opinion - too many people nowadays release fish in cold water. I haven't seen a dramatic reduction since the slot change went into effect last year. I saw the dramatic decrease back a few years ago (around 2012) once our fishing pressure came back super heavy, especially in the summer. In my opinion, summer is where we ravage the fishery, not just from keeping but from uneducated summertime catch and release - like I said I'm guilty of it myself in the past. Striper don't release in water over 72-75deg - whether they swim off or not. Majority willbe dead in two days. If you don't believe me go fish a River with striper and 75deg+ water and come back the next day and you'll see every fish floating - it's eye opening. 95% are just sinking on SML because of the summertime depth.
I don't honestly know if Dan has any stats on how the slot change has worked - he said he'd see it immediately within a year or two so by this fall he should have something on it I would think. I say if they aren't growing still, then let's just pack it full and live with what we have - it's not overcrowded at this point, even in the 28" range.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 4:17:36 GMT -5
It was specifically to allow more fish in the 26-28" to be removed to try to stop the blockade as increasingly more and more fish in the lake were stunting at that length................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ I'm not sure it was specifically intended to dramatically reduce the overall population Thanks for responding, but I still don't get it. How can we remove more without there being less?? In my mind the DGIF would have to know the number taken out each year (which is impossible) and replace that number with stocked fry..... with a mortality rate of 70-80 percent of each years stocking, wouldn't they have to stock a much bigger number than they do?
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Post by striperjohn on Feb 14, 2016 7:20:53 GMT -5
Hey Bigun I'm sure Bentrod's just passing on what he was told by DGIF and I've heard the same things over the years from them. But bottom line here is we haven't seen any documented evidence from anyone with any knowledge on this subject, either good or bad. Everyone seems to blame the summer weather and I admit, I've kind of got on that bandwagon. However, on Santee Cooper stripers thrived in 95-100 degree South Carolina weather and water temps of 88-90 and depths of only 55 feet. At the dam it was near 100 but the lake is and overall very shallow lake. I fished it from the late 60s to the late 70s. I never once saw a fish kill. Why are the stripers suddenly affected by heat? Or if it's been a buildup of things. What are they? If the summer heat here is affecting our fish, why? Oxygen depravation I've heard, but where's the evidence? Santee had a major Army Corps of engineer change in the lake that dramatically cut down on bait quantities in the lake. What happened to SML? The only thing I can remember in recent (last 10 years) is the die off of the Threadfin Shad and the Copepods. But lack of bait could be responsible for not rebounding. Is that the cause? Is it something as simple as lack of baitfish and the subsequent effects? FYI, ALewives and Gizzards don't reproduce anywhere near what the Threadfin's do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 7:29:00 GMT -5
It's two completely different issues, although it would make sense they're related in some way if you reduce numbers overall and maintain forage levels. To be clear, there haven't been near as many fish WAAAAY before the slot change. Our fish numbers went to pot around 2013. And honestly we had about 8-10yrs there where pressure was minimal, so maybe this is now the norm - I don't honestly know what the deal is - I just know we used to hit maaassssive schools on the regular all over the lake and when I hit just an average school these days I'm giggling like a school girl. Either way, tons or none, they're still stunted. I would love to see you giggle like a school girl. What happens to MWard? When I run into a deep school of spaghetti, I tend to jump around like a bunch of cheerleaders during a pep rally. If the fish are breaking, I get pushed over the edge of insanity and will tangle all of my poles together, drop my gopro into my bait tank, and cuss a lot. I can't imagine that any drug could be as potent as breaking fish. I also realize that the more common these events are, the less they intrigue me.
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Post by striperjohn on Feb 14, 2016 8:19:43 GMT -5
It's two completely different issues, although it would make sense they're related in some way if you reduce numbers overall and maintain forage levels. To be clear, there haven't been near as many fish WAAAAY before the slot change. Our fish numbers went to pot around 2013. And honestly we had about 8-10yrs there where pressure was minimal, so maybe this is now the norm - I don't honestly know what the deal is - I just know we used to hit maaassssive schools on the regular all over the lake and when I hit just an average school these days I'm giggling like a school girl. Either way, tons or none, they're still stunted. I would love to see you giggle like a school girl. What happens to MWard? When I run into a deep school of spaghetti, I tend to jump around like a bunch of cheerleaders during a pep rally. If the fish are breaking, I get pushed over the edge of insanity and will tangle all of my poles together, drop my gopro into my bait tank, and cuss a lot. I can't imagine that any drug could be as potent as breaking fish. I also realize that the more common these events are, the less they intrigue me. Yam I have a good friend who is the coolest fisherman I know catching LM. But when he sees breaking fish he turns into a maniac, tangling lines, running to get a cast. Total loss of his "cool". Funny as heck.
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BentRod
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Post by BentRod on Feb 14, 2016 9:17:36 GMT -5
It was specifically to allow more fish in the 26-28" to be removed to try to stop the blockade as increasingly more and more fish in the lake were stunting at that length................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ I'm not sure it was specifically intended to dramatically reduce the overall population Thanks for responding, but I still don't get it. How can we remove more without there being less?? In my mind the DGIF would have to know the number taken out each year (which is impossible) and replace that number with stocked fry..... with a mortality rate of 70-80 percent of each years stocking, wouldn't they have to stock a much bigger number than they do? Oh no doubt it's removed some from the fishery, but it's not like we went from a closed season to open season - there's still a 2 fish limit and I'd guess the overwhelming majority of folks that would release a 29" before the slot change still release that same fish. What I'm saying, is our population decline happened pre slot change, in my opinion, when our fishing pressure doubled, tripled, etc back 5-6yrs ago. That's where we took the big hit I think. Not to be disrespectful Bigun, but you clearly care about this fishery and jump in on every single discussion like this, so why don't you talk to Dan and get the facts, and make an effort to help solve the problem - and maybe you have, but bottom line is nothing is/was guaranteed - they took an educated stab at it, said so themselves, and hoped they got it right. Me personally, I haven't seen any change in the past two years, but then again I don't fish as much as I once did so wouldn't expect to see it immediately. To your point, Dan's said over and over, he's willing to make whatever changes are necessary and stocking more isn't off the table completely. For him, the easiest thing would be to stock minimal fish, have a healthy fishery with many less fish and normal growth, but they push this fishery on the red line constantly because that's what everyone wants. As far as summer mortality, that's related to angler mortality only. I think the fish can survive fine on their own through SML summers - there's plenty of deep, cool, oxygenated water. Anglers are the ones killing them. I can't answer your question, but they do stock as many or more per acre than any striper fishery I've seen on paper. PS Bigun - I actually think you and I agree on this issue - just maybe not how we got there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 10:36:19 GMT -5
Thanks for responding, but I still don't get it. How can we remove more without there being less?? In my mind the DGIF would have to know the number taken out each year (which is impossible) and replace that number with stocked fry..... with a mortality rate of 70-80 percent of each years stocking, wouldn't they have to stock a much bigger number than they do? Not to be disrespectful Bigun, but you clearly care about this fishery and jump in on every single discussion like this, so why don't you talk to Dan and get the facts, and make an effort to help solve the problem - and maybe you have PS Bigun - I actually think you and I agree on this issue - just maybe not how we got there. I talked to Dan a couple times back during the comment period and per our conversations, thought I was helping solve the problem by keeping more fish...... still second guess that decision every time on on the water. Having said that, in my lifetime I have been thru many, many comment stages on many different proposed regulation changes from hunting and fishing to clean air and water to new ordinances to keep strip clubs out of town.. I have come to the conclusion that the comment period for any proposed reg change is nothing more than a formality that they must go thru.... The voice of the common man is no longer heard.... after all, we are just common fishermen, what could we possibly know about what's going on in the lake...... and BentRod, we agree on a lot more than you think.
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BentRod
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Post by BentRod on Feb 14, 2016 10:51:27 GMT -5
Not to be disrespectful Bigun, but you clearly care about this fishery and jump in on every single discussion like this, so why don't you talk to Dan and get the facts, and make an effort to help solve the problem - and maybe you have PS Bigun - I actually think you and I agree on this issue - just maybe not how we got there. I talked to Dan a couple times back during the comment period and per our conversations, thought I was helping solve the problem by keeping more fish...... still second guess that decision every time on on the water. Having said that, in my lifetime I have been thru many, many comment stages on many different proposed regulation changes from hunting and fishing to clean air and water to new ordinances to keep strip clubs out of town.. I have come to the conclusion that the comment period for any proposed reg change is nothing more than a formality that they must go thru.... The voice of the common man is no longer heard.... after all, we are just common fishermen, what could we possibly know about what's going on in the lake...... and BentRod, we agree on a lot more than you think. Are you saying you're a Hokie too?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 11:04:52 GMT -5
Absolutely!!! I've probably spent more time at Lane Stadium than you have.
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irons
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Post by irons on Feb 14, 2016 15:08:19 GMT -5
A slot limit would make sense if the fish reproduced naturally in the lake but they don't or at a really limited amount. If fish were stunting at a certain size then removing those that stop at a small size would help eliminate that from the gene pool. Same reasoning as the slot limit on brown trout in the smith river, but they reproduce in the river. To me it seems to be plenty of forage and the water temps are good for growth, so it seems to me to leave one aspect. The genetics of the fish being stocked in the lake. Personally I think the state needs to look at the fish being stocked and change the genetics of those.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:40:24 GMT -5
I think we all need to take our skills to John's beloved Santee Cooper. Bentrod will build a giant striper tank then we will all fill her up with 20-40 pound fish. We will then dump them on the Blackwater side where they can find fish as big as they are and feel at home.
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Post by striperjohn on Feb 14, 2016 16:47:26 GMT -5
A slot limit would make sense if the fish reproduced naturally in the lake but they don't or at a really limited amount. If fish were stunting at a certain size then removing those that stop at a small size would help eliminate that from the gene pool. Same reasoning as the slot limit on brown trout in the smith river, but they reproduce in the river. To me it seems to be plenty of forage and the water temps are good for growth, so it seems to me to leave one aspect. The genetics of the fish being stocked in the lake. Personally I think the state needs to look at the fish being stocked and change the genetics of those. Irons we have no where near the forage on sml that we had when we had the threadfins. Related to stunted growth and numbers? Would appear to be but I am not sure anyone knows that answer.
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Post by gofish2 on Feb 14, 2016 18:11:49 GMT -5
What cause the die off of the threadfins and when did it occur? Was it the Copepods and the same time as the Striped Bass die off? 2003? Can and has it been any restocking of threadfins in SML?
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