BentRod
Global Moderator
Posts: 2,252
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Post by BentRod on Dec 21, 2012 9:53:35 GMT -5
I challenge anyone to not run off emotions of a single event and to look at the facts about gun violence in America. It's nowhere near the threat to our society that things like tobacco use, alcohol abuse, cancer, heart disease, car accidents, drug abuse, etc, etc are to us. But certain individuals would want you to think that so what better time to do so? I'm embarrassed in my country that we are so insane that we politicize a tragedy the day it happens. Even our president politicized it during a prayer vigil..let me repeat myself, a prayer vigil, for the victims. Never mind the families that lost their little children and loved ones, never mind those other little innocent children that had to see their teachers, friends, and others brutally murdered before their very eyes, and never mind the first responders and investigators that had to witness a horrific scene. Instead, we immediately want to talk about gun control and let it dominate the airwaves, when in reality, that's not even the issue here. When did the tragedy happen? A week ago? Unbelievable.
This tragedy was caused by a mentally disturbed individual. Not a gun. That is a fact.
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Post by leo24551 on Dec 21, 2012 10:30:36 GMT -5
AMEN
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Post by wishforfish on Dec 21, 2012 11:18:59 GMT -5
Well said Bentrod...the fake tears wiping the corner of his eye during the address made me throw up in my mouth. mrgreenfish, I don't take myself that seriously as just about anyone here can attest to. There, I finished a sentence with a preposition to make you feel better.
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Post by mrgreenfish on Dec 21, 2012 13:58:51 GMT -5
The gun used was a legally puchased gun. The owner, however, was not responsible enough to keep it out of the hands of her mentally disturbed son. That needs to change. Not once on this entire topic have I said guns should be banned. In fact I said just the opposite. Theres probably nothing I could ever say that any of you would agree with. Not because of what I say, but because of who I am, or who you think I am. Instead, you would just find another way to degrade me. But I'm a grown man. I can take it. This will, however be my last post. Consider it a Christmas gift. Feel free to cancel my membership on this forum. I won't be looking back. Merry Christmas to all of you. P.S. If you wake up & find a red rider BB gun under your tree, be careful, don't shoot your eye out!
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Post by mwardncsu on Dec 21, 2012 15:11:13 GMT -5
MrGreenfish - no need to go away - you should not take any of the comments as personal attacks and I don't think, or at least hope, that no one is agreeing or disagreeing with you because of "who they think you are". This can be a polarizing issue and I appreciate the fact that the discussion has been a civil and open as it has - honestly expected it to go down-hill very fast and glad it did not. There are different viewpoints and this started as a request to understand those viewpoints. There should be no surprise on a forum of sportsmen/women that there is going to be a strong bias to one side on this issue - and from what I read in your post you are also largely in the same camp, just with a little different views on certain aspects of this larger, complex issue - and you are not alone in not 100% agreeing with everyone - heck, I don't think anyone on here 100% agrees with anyone else - and most of the time they don't agree 100% with themselves. So don't let this one discussion send you away. I've held off posting my thoughts on this, but guess I'll chime in as well in my long-fashioned manner. We're getting a little off-topic of the original discussion, but hard not to I guess. Now, I'm no where close to being the head of Pres. Obama's Fan Club, but I have to believe that the emotion showed by Obama during his initial comments that day were those of a father that has two girls - anyone with a beating heart was feeling the same at that moment. When I heard about it during a Christmas lunch for our company, it made me instantly sick to my stomach as well. Was it politically beneficial for him, perhaps, but I have to believe it was also from the heart and we should try not to look at every action from a given side through political filters. Personally, I agree with most of what has been said here - and some on both sides of the issue (or issues as there are multiple things intertwined here) - I'll say that I have had similar questions/thoughts to those from Afloat on the desire to own certain types of weapons and it is good to hear the inputs and reasons from others. I get those reasons and understand them - and I agree that guns don't kill by themselves - though the type/style of weapon can certainly increase the level of destruction that occurs in the process, which raises a valid question on what level of control should exist due to that fact. Someone mentioned the incident in China on that same day where someone attacked 20ish children with a knife - violence and evil exists - but with the knife vs. the gun those children are still alive today. Gun control or other controls of the sort won't stop the violence of those destined to do so. The focus should be on how to avoid those folks getting to the point where they lash out and use a gun, knife, flame, fist, whatever as their method of expression. That said, I will support and defend the rights of individuals to own the weapons of their choice as afforded to them by the 2nd amendment as citizens of the United States as that is one of the foundations of our country and the freedoms to which we enjoy and what separates us from other countries - to which my father and other relatives and friends have fought to defend. It seems a shame that instantaneously the discussion went to the topic of gun-control. In fact, it would be interesting to track back and see where the 1st comment came from - which side of the issue. The fact that one side had to instantly "raise the shields" or the other side had to instantly "go after the guns" says we are over sensitized to the issue. How come the issue did not immediately go to the issue of mental health and such - why to gun control? Not sure who is more to blame on the focus and attention going elsewhere from where it perhaps should be - something to thing about. I'll openly admit that I currently do not own a firearm. (well, outside a Red Rider BB gun ). I did not grow up hunting, but was exposed to guns and the proper respect for them as a child. There are lots of reasons for why I don't own one today - though I am now closer than I ever have been to making a purchase and likely securing a concealed carry - for both myself & my wife. The "they are going to stop us from buying guns - better get some now" argument is NOT one of the reasons. And even not owning weapons does not prevent my taking responsibility to educating my children on the respect to give them and how to handle/manage them. I have a son that is starting to hunt with his PawPaw and before he ever set foot in the woods with a gun, the 1st thing I, my wife and his PawPaw did with Matt was to make sure he was educated on the importance of gun safety, the respect he has to provide to gun, the respect he must show for life (human or animal) and the privilege & responsibility he must uphold in doing so. Regardless if you own a gun or not, this is a responsibility of a parent and the other adult figures in the kids lives. So - we've diverged a bit from the original focus of the question but I believe this has been a healthy open exchange. Let's hope the same level of energy here and elsewhere can be given to other core issues - and let's all remember that we each have our views, influenced by our experiences and pasts and that by sharing these views and experiences through discussion we all hopefully learn and grow in the process.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 15:42:47 GMT -5
Just wanted to share an email I recieved today.
A Blue Rose
Having four visiting family members, my wife was very busy, so I offered to go to the store for her to get some needed items, which included light bulbs, paper towels, trash bags, detergent and Clorox. So off I went.
I scurried around the store, gathered up my goodies and headed for the checkout counter, only to be blocked in the narrow aisle by a young man who appeared to be about sixteen-years-old. I wasn't in a hurry, so I patiently waited for the boy to realize that I was there. This was when he waved his hands excitedly in the air and declared in a loud voice, "Mommy, I'm over here."
It was obvious now, he was mentally challenged and also startled as he turned and saw me standing so close to him, waiting to squeeze by. His eyes widened and surprise exploded on his face as I said, "Hey Buddy, what's your name?"
"My name is Denny and I'm shopping with my mother," he responded proudly.
"Wow," I said, "that's a cool name; I wish my name was Denny, but my name is Steve."
"Steve, like Stevarino?" he asked.
"Yes," I answered. "How old are you Denny?"
"How old am I now, Mommy?" he asked his mother as she slowly came over from the next aisle.
"You're fifteen-years-old, Denny; now be a good boy and let the man pass by."
I acknowledged her and continued to talk to Denny for several more minutes about summer, bicycles and school. I watched his brown eyes dance with excitement, because he was the center of someone's attention. He then abruptly turned and headed toward the toy section.
Denny's mom had a puzzled look on her face and thanked me for taking the time to talk with her son. She told me that most people wouldn't even look at him, much less talk to him.
I told her that it was my pleasure and then I said something I have no idea where it came from, other than by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I said, "There are plenty of red, yellow, and pink roses in God's Garden; however, "Blue Roses" are very rare and should be appreciated for their beauty and distinctiveness. You see, Denny is a Blue Rose and if someone doesn't stop and smell that rose with their heart and touch that rose with their kindness, then they've missed a blessing from God."
She was silent for a second, then with a tear in her eye she asked, "Who are you?"
Without thinking I said, "Oh, I'm probably just a dandelion, but I sure love living in God's garden."
She reached out, squeezed my hand and said, "God bless you!" and then I had tears in my eyes.
May I suggest, the next time you see a BLUE ROSE, don't turn your head and walk off. Take the time to smile and say Hello. Why? Because, by the grace of GOD, this mother or father could be you. This could be your child, grandchild, niece or nephew. What a difference a moment can mean to that person or their family.
Sent to you by an old dandelion!
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Post by 2 oars & a trash can on Dec 21, 2012 15:46:13 GMT -5
Hey Mr Greenfish,
Sorry if I left you out to dry. I kind of decided early on not to debate this point here, but just to read, so when I see a lot I don't agree with, I just note to myself why and keep reading.
I tried making valid (??!?) points around election time and ended doing what you just did, leaving, because being so outnumbered was disheartening, and hey, if I want to be insulted, I can find some other place to do so.
That said, this thread has been 99% respectful and educational, in a large part (I think) because the moderators insisted on it.
The only time I see where it got personal was this:
"When you use a satirical cartoon to make your point and are serious about it , that shows little concern for the interpretation of facts just an emotional desire to make your view legitmate with whatever is available to you...except reason."
which is fairly mild.
Like I said, I'm not here to debate but to absorb the wealth of opinions and information. For that it's been excellent.
Didn't mean to leave you totally outnumbered by being silent.
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Post by 2 oars & a trash can on Dec 21, 2012 15:48:56 GMT -5
It's nowhere near the threat to our society that things like tobacco use, alcohol abuse, cancer, heart disease, car accidents, drug abuse, etc, etc are to us. We have a lot of laws regulating and restricting tobacco, alcohol, cars and drugs. Which side are you on again?
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Post by striperjohn on Dec 21, 2012 16:09:21 GMT -5
One other thing you might want to look at there Afloat-the Connecticut law that might possibly have stopped the Newtown event was shut down due to threats by one of your left wing organizations the ACLU. That is a fact as well. In fact the law would have required that that young man be analyzed and supervised by a competent medical professional to ensure he was being treated properly and taking his medications. Which in this case he was not. Also in the law the the ACLU stopped by threatening lawsuits, protests etc was a requirement that the homes of individuals with his condition be free of threatening devices and or be secure from him. Now what side of this were you on?
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Post by mwardncsu on Dec 21, 2012 16:18:33 GMT -5
StriperJohn - I don't recall Afloat "taking a side", nor have I personally seen his ALCU card - this is what MrGreenfish was alluding to - let's not make assumptions about folks affiliations, believes or other based on limited statements made on a fishing forum. But it is good info on initiative re: mental health protection that I certainly was not aware of.... would be interested to read more about the specific proposed legislation.
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Post by wishforfish on Dec 21, 2012 17:26:56 GMT -5
Aw hell, I didn't mean it as a personal attack...just pushing buttons back in response to the cartoon, the hick hunter characterized with the NRA reference, the conspiracy theory outburst on the NRA (of which I am not a member and could really care less) and spelling comment to make sure I "understood". I didn't mean to "degrade" anyone and I will stop posting on this too for what it is worth. Other than the jabs I was very serious in my reasoning on the question about "why" ownership of assault type weapons (which I thought this was about in the first place).
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BentRod
Global Moderator
Posts: 2,252
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Post by BentRod on Dec 21, 2012 19:16:55 GMT -5
Geez I go to work, come back and drama city. I'm not gonna read all that nonsense. My opinion is everybody is welcome, no matter their opinion, but if you come on here and 95% of your posts are political in nature and a large percentage of the people on here mostly disagree with you on those subjects, then you better have some thick skin. Nobody wins when talking politics. It's as simple as that. We got enough BS in the world to have to deal with more of it here.
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Post by hillbilly on Dec 21, 2012 21:31:12 GMT -5
Four pages debating the question. For your consideration, I'd like to offer the Answer:
Twas' 11 days before Christmas, around 9:38 when 20 beautiful children stormed through heaven's gate.
their smiles were contagious, their laughter filled the air. they could hardly believe all the beauty they saw there.
they were filled with such joy, they didn't know what to say. they remembered nothing of what had happened earlier that day.
"where are we?" asked a little girl, as quiet as a mouse. "this is heaven." declared a small boy. "we're spending Christmas at God's house."
when what to their wondering eyes did appear, but Jesus, their savior, the children gathered near.
He looked at them and smiled, and they smiled just the same. then He opened His arms and He called them by name.
and in that moment was joy, that only heaven can bring those children all flew into the arms of their King
and as they lingered in the warmth of His embrace, one small girl turned and looked at Jesus' face.
and as if He could read all the questions she had He gently whispered to her, "I'll take care of mom and dad."
then He looked down on earth, the world far below He saw all of the hurt, the sorrow, and woe
then He closed His eyes and He outstretched His hand, "Let My power and presence re-enter this land!"
"may this country be delivered from the hands of fools" "I'm taking back my nation. I'm taking back my schools!"
then He and the children stood up without a sound. "come now my children, let me show you around."
excitement filled the space, some skipped and some ran. all displaying enthusiasm that only a small child can.
and i heard Him proclaim as He walked out of sight, "in the midst of this darkness, I AM STILL THE LIGHT."
of course I'm not the author, and yeah I know its the stuff that chain emails and facebook posts are made of. The message is still there.
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Post by creeker on Dec 21, 2012 22:57:31 GMT -5
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Post by superstriper on Dec 23, 2012 16:24:30 GMT -5
you ever notice what happens to the grocery store shelves when they call for a bad storm, milk and bread go first. or riots, like in LA. and DC. to mention a couple, you have killings, looting and burning. well we live in a bad sick world, and bad things will happen, all it would take is one bad act of chemical warfare, a big bomb, or any thing that disrupts the food chain,or power grid and you will have a total riot of people stealing and killing to survive. look at the riots when katrina hit. my guns are to protect me and my family from that type of problem. we flip a switch and we got power, we go to the store and buy food, or hit the curb market on the way home, remember the idiots during the oil embargo under carter, you ever think what would happen if any of these things were suddenly interrupted, even for a few weeks. remember the guy up north that was tied up and watched his wife, and daughter raped, killed and set on fire. I bet he wishes he had a gun to defend them with now. the police and or government cannot and will not be there to protect you, the government will promise you anything and give you money and food to vote for them, they sure don't want you owning a gun when the day comes they no longer can support you or you figure out you have been had. these lunatics that do the mass killings are just that, lunatics, and want to be noticed or famous. i doubt we can ever stop them, they will just find another way, Timothy mcvey used fertilizer, etc. but i sleep good at night knowing i have a chance to stop it from happening at my house. you antigun people will be the first ones crying for help if it happens to you, and you just may be glad you know a gun toting redneck one day. congress and the president not only are protected by guns, but they have special underground places to hide if need be. your governor is protected by guns, even the coach at a football game has a sheriff or state trooper with a gun. your glorious president sat by with a blind eye and let the dept of justice sell guns to mexican criminals. if you don't want a gun, thats fine, the declaration of independence says "we hold these truths to be self-evident, all men are created equal, they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, " well my second amendment rights allow me to have a life of liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which includes protecting my family, i close this by being a redneck and proud of it, if you want my guns just follow the little red dot,
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