summertime fishing

[Deleted]

Ok kids with summer fast approaching, todays discussion is about summertime fishing. This topic usually comes up every summer. Some very heated arguements and hissy fits have been thrown. Heck, if I remember correctly, an alien came down from outer space and stabbed Jack Nickleson with one of his 16 tenticles the last time this topic came up. While we are all passionate in our beliefs and opinions, try to remember, if someone has a valid fishing license they have every "LEGAL" right to fish in the hottest months, catch their limit and keep fishing, as long as they catch and release, no matter if it's 50 fish. As for it being ethical, I don't have the qualifacatons or the desire to decide what is ethical for someone else and honestly, neither do you, so please "try" to be civil. Everyone has a right to their opinion, just don't try to push it onto someone else

I'll start,

Tyler...you have put in your time, and are one of the most conservative minded fishermen I know. Thru a lot of hours and hard work, you are one of a handfull (travis @ todd included) of folks on here that have just about mastered striper fishing on the lake. I value your opinion, so I have a question....

You know I fish during the summer months...I also know, even though you don't condone it much, you have snuck out in the summer months before. While I do fish in the hotter months, I do not catch and release. I have taken 2 guys out in august, drove 40 minutes down the lake, start fishing at 6:30 am, have our limit by 6:45 (don't always work out like that, just trying to make a point) pack up and head back in. My question is....

In your opinion, what do you think the cutoff (as far as water temp) is for releasing fish and it surviving in hot water??....sorry to drag you in this, but hey, that's why you make the big bucks.

[2 oars & a trash can]

We may be better off going back to politics.

[mwardncsu]

A well positioned way to head-off the always to come debate, and a good one to have to raise awareness of the issues, facts, what's unknown, etc.  We all learn a little from the discussion each time, and perhaps our personal opinions on the matter change.   I know you asked Bentrod, and I'm sure he'll provide his thoughts and experience as well - however, here is some info / data to chew on as well.....

Studies have not been done on SML, so folks will argue about the studies being valid on our waters. We tried to work with DGIF a couple of years ago to get some studies done, and thought we were going to get a radio tagging study done by the intern that was going to be the resource from DGIF choose a different project to pursue. I have to believe the biology of the fish are fairly consistent across bodies of water, though the environments may not be - with respect to Dissolved Oxygen, etc, but the facts say that fish morality is higher as the temperature warms, and larger fish have a higher mortality rate than smaller fish at warmer temperatures. What I do know is that a fish put in the cooler has a 0% chance of survival. However, the long-lived debate is if the fish released are actually dying - perhaps not turning belly up right that moment, maybe swimming off strongly, and they dying sometime later.

The argument will be made of catching fish that are holding in the upper 20' of water (warmer temps), if not actually breaking for long durations on the surface in the summer. However, many of the summer-time caught fish are coming up from 30-40' where the water is cooler.


I wish we had good access to DO readings across the lake as this is key to their ability to survive in the warmer temps, but we don't. We do have temp readings thanks to one of the guys in the Striper Club. Here are readings that I plotted from that data across several dates across the early, mid, late summer and early fall from 2012.  Look at the depths of the sub-70 degree water compared to where the fish are typically holding in those times of the summer.  Not surprising why they hold in the 30-40' range, is it, as long as there is a good supply of DO.









For me, its a question of the size of the fish, the depth caught from, and the length of the fight. If it is a mid-to-larger fish and you have to fight it for minutes or more with the fish in the upper layers of the water most of that time, that fish probably needs to go in the cooler as it is likely to die anyway. These are always the ones that are a hard call as I know they have a 0% chance of survival once in the cooler, and why I hope to not catch that citation in July.  However, I like to eat a few striper, and this is the time of year that I'll harvest some to fry up in pancake batter throughout the year.   If it is a smaller fish and brought to the boat in under a minute, unhooked and released with the dang thing spearing you with aggression, my gut is it will likely make it - maybe not, but maybe so.

[BentRod]

I appreciate the compliment. I dont think I'm in the same category as Todd and Travis (two of the best out there..anywhere..period) but I have certainly learned a lot from both of them.

I don't think there's a surface temp so to speak that would be a cutoff. Warm Water temps in June are way different than the same warm water temps in August. The reason for that is the depth the warm water penetrates to..it may be 10-15ft right now..could be 35-40ft in August. Honestly I don't have an answer..nobody does for certain, but 72-75deg is when I can usually visually see the summer stress start to affect the fish. I wouldn't be worried releasing fish right now, but I would speed my process up. Pictures would be minimal and quick. Try to protect their slime coat the best you can. The best way to release them, i think, is to do the torpedo or similar. I've released every fish I've caught in the summer and I've fished to my limit..I've gone back and forth and I dont have an answer..it's whatever you can live with at the end of the day. I personally can't intentionally kill a big fish anytime..I just won't do it unless I know its going to die from being guthooked, etc. It may live, it may die...but I have to give it the chance. That's why I personally limit my fishing so I can live with myself. But it's different for everybody..for some people that's their most enjoyable time to be on the water with friends and family.

I will say going to Tn in the summer impacted me. We were looking at mid to upper 70s degree water (only mid June) in a shallower river below a dam and there were LOTS of floaters..Mostly bigger fish. I've heard in water 30ft and under, they'll float. Deeper and the majority will sink. So we may be killing all these we release and just not know it. I think it applies mainly to the 15lb+ fish. The smaller fish are much more resilient.

[BentRod]

Gosh Mward, you got graphs and everything. I could have saved 10min writing my reply had I known you were doing a formal report!

[mwardncsu]

The more data we have the more of an informed decision we can each make

[Deleted]

If any of you other members have an opinion, would really like to here them.

[CorneliaGale]

I know when patroling in the hot summer days you see a lot of fish floating, when the water is cooler you see very few.

[striperseeker]

I would like to read the study that we are basing this discussion on. I remember in last year's discussion of this, the study had a very small sample and there was an issue with how long the fish was out of the water. If we are basing our conclusions on this study, we need to evaluate how well this study was done. Was it a valid study and what does it show in terms of statistical significance. So my question is does anyone have a reference for this article? If so, would you tell us? I will go read it and sum up what it says and report back to all of you. Thanks.

[prodigal]

Honey, does this dress make me look fat? Same situation! I understand both sides concerning whether or not to fish during the hottest months. Some people make their living by guiding. Are they going to take clients out, charge the regular fee then simply catch the legal limit and quit? Please do not answer that. On the other hand, some enjoy the only vacation they get fishing with their families on SML. They work all year, pay costly fees and spend thousands on preparing for this time. With that said, my opinion as to the chances of released fish actually surviving during the hottest months is that the majority will die then sink. Fish caught from the depths where the water is cooler sounds good, but as previously mentioned the length of the fight and many more variables come into play, too many variables I believe for anyone to assess and be accurate.
Do I use a net or no. When the striper lays in the boat does it lay perfectly still for me to remove the hook or thrash about which ruins the slime coat. The list goes on and this is just handling not to mention all the scenarios with water temp within 1 degree, D O and so forth. In my opinion, catch two and go. However, we could always cut the hooks off at the barbs and continue to enjoy the challenge! Conservation begins with us all and each individual has to decide for himself. To be perfectly honest, all of us could stay home through the summer and SML stripers would continue to fall prey to illegal capture. Following the slot limit is the key to success. I used to wade the New River religiously and am very familiar with the quality of fish it produces. At one time a slot limit of 11"-14" bass was added in a certain area. During the next four years the majority of bass caught were in this range. The slot changed to 14"-21", that's right, now the majority of fish being caught are in this range. It will work, but nothing works unless you work it.
Making 2-3 "quick" trips back to camp during the night is something that will continue without resolve and this is simply B.S. And "that's all I'M gonna say about that!"

[Deleted]

Thanks for the reply prodigal, I like the way you talk. I've often wondered if all the info passed out freely and with good intentions on here is always put to "GOOD" use. Do folks join the site because they like to fish, want to get better at it and care care about the fishery or do they just join site to find out where the fish are and use the info for their own greedy purpose.....i'm sure some of both goes on....kind of a double edged sword. But...that is a topic for another day, so I'll hush.

[mwardncsu]

StriperSeeker - Here is the graph which references the study....



Maybe you can get access to the actual journal via the university...
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675%282000%29020%3C0810%3ABATEOS%3E2.3.CO%3B2?journalCode=ujfm20#preview

It appears that this study came out of MD and the Susquehanna Flats up that way... here is a presentation overview of that info in PDF
www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/recreational/sfac/Flatstalk40609.pdf


Some other interesting reading...

from a study done on Lake Badin in NC.
www.ncsu.edu/project/fish-lab/pdfs/Thompson_etal_2007.pdf

Another interesting one
www.fws.gov/northeast/fisherycenter/pdfs/Millardetal2005.pdf

[2 oars & a trash can]

The bait mortality rate went up this week.

[striperseeker]

Thanks Mike. I will start reading them.

[striperseeker]

I have read the abstract. This paper is first rate research!!! Sample size is 1,250 fish. They found three things. One the higher the water temperature the higher the morality rate. Two, the mortality rate is higher for live bait than for artificial. Both of these were statistically significant at the .0001 level. That is a big wow!!! The third thing they tested for was whether or not the size of the fish effected the mortality rate. Here there was no statistical relationship (level of statical significance was really low). This means that their study shows that just releasing small fish does not change how many fish will die. There is the same chance they will die regardless of the stripers size.

Now I am going to find access to the whole article. What makes this study so powerful is that it includes all previous studies.