SML Striper Growth

[Deleted]

BentRod, have you banned mward from this discushion??......he has been uncharacterlisticly quiet in this topic.

[mwardncsu]

I was sampling bait yesterday and tired this morning

[BentRod]

However as soon as you introduce a predator..forage levels can decrease and maintain themselves significantly below the nutrient threshold. Thus..introducing more bait can be a solution if the lake can sustain more bait. If it can't then at least we would know if we are operating at a max bait/nutrient level scenario. It seems to me that you are assuming that SML is operating at this level. Are you assuming this or do you have proof?

This stuff has all been discussed with Dan before..we're way ahead of you! No proof unless you count 150+ days on the water per year as a very large experiment in shad collection. I leave the science to the smart people. Dan has done "unofficial" shad studies the past few years when looking at bass and whatnot in gill nets and his words were the shad population "appeared to be in good shape." That certainly doesn't mean it is by any scientific means, but if you could have only fished here 3-4yrs ago you'd better understand the obvious differences we see in our shad population. Are we full capacity year round? I have no idea...but my guess would no.

[Deleted]

Bentrod I'm with you here. My original scare was based on your observations that bait is at a local high for the last few years. I put just as much faith in actual fishermen observations as I do with sample data.

If bait is in fact at higher levels now compared to a few years back...then it seems to me that we should give it a few more years. If we had a way to measure this..then i cant imagine any scientist wanting to make a change now if that measurement showed forage to be at a local maximum. However.. because this notion of too much bait is deemed anecdotal.. then the conclusion has become make a change.

Just to make sure. Bentrod..do you feel that there is more bait this year than there was last year?

[BentRod]

Well if I'm going strictly off observations and ease of catching bait..I would say the shad spawn of 2011 was amazing (these are likely the big 6+" shad we're seeing everywhere now). We were very low on big bait and gizzards I think in the fall of 2010 and really even 2011 although it was a tad better. The shad spawn of 2012 was just ok..nothing special but not bad. The shad spawn of 2013 was again awesome. As for alewives, they peaked in 2012 I think. Last year that population didn't appear as strong, but I honestly used them about 50-75% less than what I had in past years..partly because I couldn't get the ones I wanted and partly because I used shad more. The threads made a small comeback last year..still limited numbers but there was a noticeable population..they're all dead again now I would guess.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2014 13:27:37 GMT -5 @bigun2 said:

Yam, there is no way we are even close to maximum bait capacity!!!!!!

Are you saying this based on current nutrient levels or based on your experience when you could net cow crap?

In other words.. Do you think that given the current water quality.. That SML could sustain more bait?

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2014 13:30:22 GMT -5 BentRod said:

Well if I'm going strictly off observations and ease of catching bait..I would say the shad spawn of 2011 was amazing (these are likely the big 6+" shad we're seeing everywhere now). We were very low on big bait and gizzards I think in the fall of 2010 and really even 2011 although it was a tad better. The shad spawn of 2012 was just ok..nothing special but not bad. The shad spawn of 2013 was again awesome. As for alewives, they peaked in 2012 I think. Last year that population didn't appear as strong, but I honestly used them about 50-75% less than what I had in past years..partly because I couldn't get the ones I wanted and partly because I used shad more. The threads made a small comeback last year..still limited numbers but there was a noticeable population..they're all dead again now I would guess.

One more question. Based on your experience.. How does 11-13 bait compare to the bait from 05-11?

[BentRod]

10-11 was worst for big bait. I can't say 12-13 is significantly better than 05-09 (but maybe a tad better), but we did experience a lot of drought like conditions during those years (05-09), so I would have expected it to be slightly worse anyways.

How do you sustain full capacity? The moment you reach it is the same moment you're no longer at it?

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2014 13:37:45 GMT -5 Yam said:

Feb 9, 2014 13:27:37 GMT -5 @bigun2 said:

Yam, there is no way we are even close to maximum bait capacity!!!!!!

Are you saying this based on current nutrient levels or based on your experience when you could net cow crap?

In other words.. Do you think that given the current water quality.. That SML could sustain more bait?

yam, since the implementation of said proposal of changes seems to be more based on personal experiences and opinions than scientific evidence.....I would have to say yes.

I want to commend everyone who has participated in this thread thus far. It just goes to show how passionate we all are about our lake and that we can have a debate without anyone getting their feathers ruffled.......

Having said that, the afore mentioned proposal is not going to affect me one way or the other. I'm still going to catch my share and release most of them. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture here. With reduced numbers of smaller fish, what about all the folks that are just starting out or all the ones that haven't figured the lake out yet, who may fish 5 trips and catch 2 or 3 fish, but are tickled to death. What about all the guides that make their living on smaller fish. Why should the majority suffer so a few big fish advocates can have bigger fish to chase. Don't get me wrong, I love catching big fish (and i've caught more than my share) but they are a bonus to me. I don't strictly target big fish.........ah hell, may as well cancel my charter liscense, my clients wouldn't be happy without numbers!!!!! what agenda??

[mwardncsu]

The recommendations for changes to the slot that DGIF is proposing is based on angler data input from fish head submissions, angler diaries, anceodotial input, etc that is received from a variety of anglers of varying experience levels; data from gill net surveys up to this past year; scientific models of fisheries; interaction with biologist on other fisheries; and fisheries management experience.

The unfortunate reality is that this is as much art as it is science and there will never be enough data to fill all the variables to create a perfect scientific model that is wholly correlated. That does not mean that nothing should be done nor does it mean that we should not question why, and what. And it does not mean that we should not push for more data to fill in some of the holes. And it does not mean that more folks should not take an active interest and get involved more directly in questioning, and participating in the work to gather the data, provide input, and help the decision makes to ensure they are working with the best possible data that they can.

[mwardncsu]

Bigun - I'll just say that at least one guide that depends on the fishery for their livelihood has been very involved in the discussions and data input that led to the recommendations and several others were involved to other degrees in discussions and providing their feedback - as well as helping with data collection via tagging or fish heads. They are concerned about a strong fishery with fish of all sizes to catch - but mostly that we don't head to a point where we see another crash.

I hope no one is taking away the perspective that input on the topic to DGIF thus far has come just from a couple of us posting in this thread. Others were involved - guides, ol' timers, new comers, big fish chasers, just catch a fish folk, etc. But as with my other post - more folks need to get actively involved with input and but also with assistance in collecting data so that the best info that can exist is collected to help the decisions.

I think of it like politics and our govt - if you don't participate in the process which we have when it's happening then you don't have a right to complain about it later

[Deleted]

OUCH!!!!!    i'm sorry I asked where you were.

[mwardncsu]

That wasn't intended to be a jab at you or anyone. Just wanted to clear up any misinterpretations if there were any.

I just had a lot of catching up to do in order to keep the word count in sync

I'll totally agree with you that I'm glad we can have these type of discussions / debates in an open and civil manner - we all learn when doing so.

[grasscutter]

Curious from the past....how old were the fish that were say 35 inches long.....I know that no 2 fish are the same and food variables could make a difference

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2014 15:33:06 GMT -5 mwardncsu said:

That wasn't intended to be a jab at you or anyone.   

  

figured it was just your polite way of telling me to shut up.    and "anyone" was yam ...lol

just trying to get some more folks to join the conversation and maybe raise BentRods blood pressure a little.